Objective-C and the Web

Earlier today, courtesy of @GlennChiuDev, I was reading Kevin Lawler’s informal tech note about using Objective-C to power the Web. I found myself agreeing with quite a lot of it.

I then had the chance to read @heathbordersresponse to the original post, which I realized I was also agreeing with in considerable measure.

So here’s my response to both. I’ve assumed that readers have at least skimmed both the original post and the response so that I don’t have to do what Heath did and duplicate everything they said here :).

Kevin makes the point that Apple has hugely improved Objective-C in recent times, especially with the most recent releases of OS X and iOS. Heath objects that while Objective-C has certainly improved, it’s still a strict superset of C and comes with all of C’s well-known and discussed-to-death problems.
While I agree with every one of Heath’s list of issues with Objective-C, my thought is that everyone works best in whatever works best for them. Some people (myself included) are going to be more comfortable in a bare-metal-with-extensions language like Objective-C, while others are never going to enjoy it in comparison to Java. It’s a personal thing, and I’d argue that a programmer who doesn’t like Java, for whatever reason, will never save time in it no matter how many conveniences it provides over Objective-C. Heck, I get plenty of scripting done in PHP even though I agree that Python and even Ruby have enormous language advantages and that PHP has severe community and design issues, because I’m extremely familiar with it.

Kevin goes on to say that Java was meant to be a write-once run-anywhere language but failed at it, and Heath counters by pointing out that Java does indeed do this.
This isn’t really a simple argument in either direction. Java was indeed intended as write-once run-anywhere, but while Java CLIs and servers do fulfill this promise for the most part, I think Kevin was thinking (as I did at first) of Java GUIs. To a one, I have never met a Java GUI I like, on any platform. Java apps look and act horribly non-native on OS X, are slow (and odd-looking, if less so) on Windows, are just as clunky as everything else on X11 (my personal opinion of all the X windowing toolkits is that they all stink), and as for Android… well, I don’t like Droid, and even that aside, Java working “right” on one platform is the exact opposite of the promise. In that respect it might as well not be any different from Objective-C in its platform dependence.

I do have to agree with Heath and disagree with Kevin regarding writing portable C/C++ being easy. Even if you use only POSIX APIs exclusively, which will severely limit your functionality in the general case, this is a nightmarish undertaking. Even if you restrict yourself only to Linux variants, nevermind trying to work with all the other UNIXen, OS X, and Windows, it’s all but impossible without a complex system like autoconf (which is another entire rant about horrible garbage in the making).

With regards to the JVM, I have to agree with Heath again: The JVM is absolutely a useful UNIX system layer, and JIT does make it a lot less slow than Java used to be. Similarly with garbage collection; GC is an abomination in C and Objective-C, but that’s because the design of those languages precludes the collector having full knowledge of what is and isn’t a live object without very restrictive constraints. In a fully virtualized language like Java or C#, properly implemented garbage collection is absolutely a useful technology.

I can’t say much about Java re: Oracle, since I don’t know much of what really happened there, but just from reading the respective posts, I have to say Heath makes a more persuasive argument than Kevin’s declarative statements.

Kevin then goes on to say that object-oriented programming is a win over functional programming, and Heath objects, saying that there are a great many people who disagree. In this case, while I personally agree with Kevin in my own work, this is another area where personal preference and training will trump blanket statements every time.

Kevin also talks quite a bit about Automatic Reference Counting (ARC); Heath didn’t respond to this section. I find ARC an absolute divine gift in Objective-C, but all ARC does is bring the syntax of GC to a non-GC environment, and in an incomplete fashion: The developer must still be careful to avoid retain cycles with weak references and explicit nil-ing of strong references.

Kevin goes on to talk about Apple’s failed WebObjects project. He gives some reasons and thoughts about Apple moving Objective-C to cross-platform deployment. He seems to be unaware of GNUStep, ObjFW, and other similar projects, but setting that aside, I absolutely agree that Apple bringing the full Objective-C runtime, including most if not all of Foundation, to a wider UNIX base would be spectacular. Reviving and expanding the former OpenDarwin project would also be awesome, in my opinion. In this, I’m completely on Kevin’s side; this should happen and he lists several good reasons for Apple to do it.

Now Kevin goes on to say what is no doubt the most controversial thing in his entire post: “Xcode is an excellent IDE, with tolerably good git support.”

Like Heath, I must say: This. Is. Patently. False.

Xcode 3 was a tolerably good IDE, absolutely. Not modern or fully-featured by any measure, but fairly decent. Xcode 4, however, is a crock of <censored>. I’ll let Heath’s response speak for me on this for the most part, but I’d like to add that Xcode’s git support is also absolutely abysmal. Worst of all, there’s no way to shut it off, even if you never told Xcode that the project had a git repo.

So to summarize, what Kevin seems to have posted is a rant about his issues with functional languages and Java, and his love for Objective-C, without a lot of facts to back it up. I’m strongly in agreement with his feelings on most points, and I totally agree that Objective-C would be an awesome language for Web programming, but I suspect Apple hasn’t gotten into the field exactly because Java isn’t the terrible beast he made it out to be. This is a shame, to be sure.

As a footnote to those who still follow this blog hoping for a post on this subject: Missions of the Reliant isn’t dead! I’ve been pretty busy for a long time, but I will find time to work on it!

3 thoughts on “Objective-C and the Web

  1. Rubes

    Cool discussion, thanks for writing it up. And good to hear about Missions! I know how tough it can be to find time for the passionate hobbies (see: Vespers).

    Reply
  2. Pingback: Michael Tsai - Blog - Objective-C and the Web

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